I:
An (overly) Eager Young Man.
Kitchen scene with large table, lots of kids,
including Andrew, Maydyn, her family, Sakal, and his family.
Pat: That was a
great dinner, thanks!
Sakal: No problem.
We were glad to have you over.
Pat: It was really
nice to invite all of us over.
Sakal: Well, when
you have eight children, adding four or five more people to a meal is no big
deal.
Pat: You must have
a very patient wife to be willing to have that many children.[i]
Sakal: I do have a
very patient wife… after all, she married me.
Pat: [Laughs] Say,
would you mind going on a walk with me, just the two of us?
Sakal: No, that
would be fine. [The two walk
outside and end up at the park] Well, I assume you wanted to
have some ‘man to man’ talk?
Pat: Yes. As you know, Andrew is a good friend of the family, so,
even though we told him he couldn’t court Maydyn he is still over at our house all
the time, and between him and Maydyn I have been hearing quite a bit about all
of the discussions you have been having.
I was confident, a while ago, that what I was teaching was Scriptural. I had read a lot of courtship advocates: Bill Gothard, Douglas Wilson… and much of it seemed to make sense, and follow what Scripture taught. But now, well, I have been re-thinking.
I was confident, a while ago, that what I was teaching was Scriptural. I had read a lot of courtship advocates: Bill Gothard, Douglas Wilson… and much of it seemed to make sense, and follow what Scripture taught. But now, well, I have been re-thinking.
Sakal: Always a
good thing.
Pat: Well, yes,
but, it’s not exactly making my life easy. All this time I have been thinking
of all of these wonderful qualifications that a potential ‘suitor’ must meet,
and now I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be looking for!
Sakal: I understand.
I think a large part of the church is just as confused, if not more so. But, in
the end, you did decide to turn Andrew down?
Pat: Well, no, not
really. It seems like forever ago that I told him he couldn’t court Maydyn.
Sakal: And, why was
that, anyway?
Pat: Well, since it
is just the two of us, I guess I can tell you. You see, I’m not completely convinced
about his thought life.
Sakal: Oh?
Pat: It seems to me
that he is a bit too eager to get
married, if you see what I mean.
Sakal: No, I can’t
say I do.
Pat: I don’t want
to malign a Godly young man but, well, I am not sure he has completely
conquered lust.
Sakal: No, I doubt
he has.
Pat: [Sighs] So you
see it too? So you see why I can’t let him court Maydyn?
Sakal: No.
Pat: You would let
someone court one of your daughters who hadn’t conquered lust?
Sakal: Leaving
aside the question of courtship… I would certainly let a young man who hadn’t
conquered lust marry my daughter. In
fact, quite the opposite… I don’t think I would be inclined to let a young man
who had conquered lust marry one of
my daughters. We are looking forward to grandchildren…
Pat: I don’t mean
that! I don’t mean he is a eunuch[ii]…
spiritual or otherwise.
Sakal: Perhaps I
misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that you wouldn’t let a young man who was struggling with mental
fornication… one who, when he looked at a beautiful young woman, was tempted to
undress her with his eyes… that I wouldn’t let someone like that marry my daughter.
Pat: That is what I
mean! I wouldn’t let him in my house!
Sakal: Then you had
better keep Andrew out.
Pat: What?
Sakal: Let me put
it this way: I want to give my daughter to a young man who will bless him,
sexually. You remember Proverbs five?
Pat: Well, I think
so...
Sakal: It reads
like this: Proverbs 5:15-19 Drink waters out of thine own
cistern, and running waters out of thine own well. Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and
rivers of waters in the streets. Let
them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee. Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with
the wife of thy youth. Let her be as the
loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be
thou ravished always with her love.
I want to give my daughter to a man who will find this easy! I want to give her to someone for whom she will be a blessing.
I want to give my daughter to a man who will find this easy! I want to give her to someone for whom she will be a blessing.
Pat: Wow. But what
about, I mean... don't you want her to be happy?
Sakal: Of course,
but that is not my primary goal. Happiness is like health: if you make it your
primary goal you end up sick. It is precisely when we stop focusing on her
happiness, and focus instead on what she should be doing, what her God given
goals are, that she will arrive at the happiness God has for her.
I want my daughter's goal to be to glorify God. And in marriage, I want her primary goal to be to be a blessing to her husband, to glorify God in that way. When a young man comes for my daughter... or when his father comes presenting him, I want my primary thought to be, "Can my daughter serve God by serving this man? Does she have what he needs?" We see in I Peter 3 a wife blessing a man who ‘obeys not the word’. Our daughters do not serve God merely by marrying the best man in all the world, the most Godly man on the planet; they do it by marrying the man that needs her, the one God has created her for.
I want my daughter's goal to be to glorify God. And in marriage, I want her primary goal to be to be a blessing to her husband, to glorify God in that way. When a young man comes for my daughter... or when his father comes presenting him, I want my primary thought to be, "Can my daughter serve God by serving this man? Does she have what he needs?" We see in I Peter 3 a wife blessing a man who ‘obeys not the word’. Our daughters do not serve God merely by marrying the best man in all the world, the most Godly man on the planet; they do it by marrying the man that needs her, the one God has created her for.
Pat: And the young
man's father, should he be thinking the same thing?
Sakal: Well, sort
of. The young man's father will, I hope, be thinking, "Will this young
woman be able to meet my son's needs. Will she be able to bless him sexually
and in every other way; and will their union meet our family goals of
glorifying God?"
Pat: That, that's
not what I meant! I meant, should the young man's father be thinking about how
his son can bless his wife?
Sakal: That should
be what he has trained him for, but it isn't what he should choose her for. She
is being chosen as his helpmeet, not vice versa. I happen to believe that God
has made women, in general, to be good helpmeets. I don't think that there are
any such things, in the end, as bad matches[iii].
A father should be looking for the best wife for his son, the one with the most
strengths etc.
But I don't think that should be the girl's father's goal. I see Scripture as saying that his goal should be to answer the question, "is my daughter equipped to be a helpmeet to this young man, to bless him all of his days?"
As fathers of sons, we are to train our sons to love their wives, to give honor to them as the weaker vessel, and to guide them spiritually. But that is simply what we have trained them to do, it doesn’t affect which particular girl they are to marry.
But I don't think that should be the girl's father's goal. I see Scripture as saying that his goal should be to answer the question, "is my daughter equipped to be a helpmeet to this young man, to bless him all of his days?"
As fathers of sons, we are to train our sons to love their wives, to give honor to them as the weaker vessel, and to guide them spiritually. But that is simply what we have trained them to do, it doesn’t affect which particular girl they are to marry.
Pat: But… that
seems so…
Sakal: Unequal?
Foreign? Patriarchal?
Pat: Well, yes; which,
with my knowledge of the Scriptures, should almost be a recommendation. Isn’t
that precisely the battle that the church is having in our generation: that we
are finding so much of what Scripture tells us to do ‘unequal, foreign, and
patriarchal’?
Returning to our original subject, you are saying that almost all of our young men are, well, let’s say ‘healthy’. Some of them are more tempted, sexually, than others; and some have fallen farther than others in that area, but that God calls for all of them to get married.
Returning to our original subject, you are saying that almost all of our young men are, well, let’s say ‘healthy’. Some of them are more tempted, sexually, than others; and some have fallen farther than others in that area, but that God calls for all of them to get married.
Sakal: And I Corinthians
7 was written to the church. So they are to find their wives within the church…
both the ‘incontinent’ young man and the young man who, while remaining much
more pure, still wants a wife; both of them are to find their wives within the
church. Both of them are to be able to come to you and say, “I need a wife.”
And that need, while it must include all of the wonderful spiritual reasons for getting a wife: getting a helpmeet, growing toward being an elder or deacon, being fruitful… it should also be the spiritual need of avoiding fornication. Even if the young man, or his father, is not bold enough to state it, he is still allowed, indeed commanded, to need to rejoice in her physically and thus avoid the ‘strange woman’.
And that need, while it must include all of the wonderful spiritual reasons for getting a wife: getting a helpmeet, growing toward being an elder or deacon, being fruitful… it should also be the spiritual need of avoiding fornication. Even if the young man, or his father, is not bold enough to state it, he is still allowed, indeed commanded, to need to rejoice in her physically and thus avoid the ‘strange woman’.
Pat: That is a hard
statement. Almost no one is saying that nowadays. They are all standing up in
meetings, promoting books: and talking about all the things a young man has to
be before he can marry… and the same for the young woman.
One very important scholar, very respected, has said that while a young man should look for a young woman that meets Proverbs 31 and Titus 2, the young woman and her father should seek a man that fits Titus 1.[iv]
One very important scholar, very respected, has said that while a young man should look for a young woman that meets Proverbs 31 and Titus 2, the young woman and her father should seek a man that fits Titus 1.[iv]
Sakal: A very respected commentator. I listened
to his tape the other day. I would ask you a question about that message. He
gave it, I presume, to a large group of men and boys. In effect he gave it to
‘the church’… he made the case that these principles should apply to every
Christian marriage.
Do you think that, if you had been the speaker who had given that message, you would have felt comfortable, afterwards, standing up, reading I Corinthians 7:2 and 9, and saying that you believed in applying that? That that passage was still true, and valid, for all Christians?
Do you think that, if you had been the speaker who had given that message, you would have felt comfortable, afterwards, standing up, reading I Corinthians 7:2 and 9, and saying that you believed in applying that? That that passage was still true, and valid, for all Christians?
Pat: Well, no.
Obviously if the young man has to meet Titus 1, and the young woman Titus 2 and Proverbs 31, we are not going to be marrying, or ‘letting them marry’, ‘every man’ and ‘every woman’; let alone the ones who are having the problem of I Corinthians 7:2 and 9! Not when they are young and struggling, anyway. Indeed the Titus qualification of ‘blameless’ seems to specifically contradict the I Corinthians 7 issue of ‘cannot contain’. How can that pastor say of any man that ‘cannot contain’, or who is ‘burning’ that he is, at the same time, ‘blameless’?
But, what he is saying is what practically all the modern commentators are saying, in one form or the other!
Obviously if the young man has to meet Titus 1, and the young woman Titus 2 and Proverbs 31, we are not going to be marrying, or ‘letting them marry’, ‘every man’ and ‘every woman’; let alone the ones who are having the problem of I Corinthians 7:2 and 9! Not when they are young and struggling, anyway. Indeed the Titus qualification of ‘blameless’ seems to specifically contradict the I Corinthians 7 issue of ‘cannot contain’. How can that pastor say of any man that ‘cannot contain’, or who is ‘burning’ that he is, at the same time, ‘blameless’?
But, what he is saying is what practically all the modern commentators are saying, in one form or the other!
Sakal: Yet none of
the old commentators say the same thing. I have the commentaries at home if you
would like to look them up with me…
Pat: No, I don’t
mean to say I don’t believe you, I just find it incredible that any Godly man
would say such a thing; that any father could consider deliberately giving his
daughter to a young man…
Sakal: Who was eager
for the pleasures of the marriage bed? Were you
not eager? Did you have lust conquered?
Pat: [After a long period of silence] Well,
we are both married men, I suppose I can tell you that I did not have lust conquered. Indeed, Maydyn’s
mother and I… we… well, we came pretty
close to having Maydyn less than nine months after our wedding.
Sakal: So you think
that you should have waited until you had gotten lust conquered? Do you know of
any young man that has lust conquered?
Pat: Well,
certainly no young man that I actually
know. But, how can I have some young man court my daughter if he, if they…
Sakal: Court? I
didn’t say anything about anyone courting
one of my daughters. But the young man who marries
my daughter, do I want him to want to sleep with her? Isn’t that part of what
marriage is about? Is it not written: Let thy
fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. Let her be as the
loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be
thou ravished always with her love.[v]
Pat: But that is
once you already have a wife!
Sakal: Exactly.
I can certainly understand why you don’t want them hanging around each other before they are in covenant together, but why not let them marry?
I can certainly understand why you don’t want them hanging around each other before they are in covenant together, but why not let them marry?
Pat: But how do
they get there?!
I don’t have anything against marriage, far from it. I would love for Maydyn to be married and bringing me grandchildren. I thought about what you said, or at least what part of it I heard, and what your wife said, and I was thinking about it. Maybe she is ready to be married. Maybe they are ready to be married. But how do we get there?
I don’t have anything against marriage, far from it. I would love for Maydyn to be married and bringing me grandchildren. I thought about what you said, or at least what part of it I heard, and what your wife said, and I was thinking about it. Maybe she is ready to be married. Maybe they are ready to be married. But how do we get there?
Sakal: Speaking of
‘getting there’, our walk has brought us full circle and we have arrived back
at our house. Do you think that Andrew and Maydyn might want to be with us for
the next part of this discussion? Are we done with the ‘married men’ part?
Pat: Sure.
[i]
Not an issue that we address in this book, but Ps 127 and other passages
clearly list children, many children, as a blessing God bestows on a man (and
his wife).
[ii]
Matt19:12
[iii]
Prov 18:22: Nowhere in Scripture do we find anything like the modern theory
about ‘bad matches’. Instead we see husbands and wives responsible for their
own actions within every marriage. The example of Christ shows how a husband
should behave with a ‘bad’ wife.
[iv]
Vodie Baucham, on the CD “The Four P’s”.
[v]
Prov 5: 18-19
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