But doesn’t the Bible say “Children, obey your parents”? “Honor thy father and mother”? Of course it does, and I’m not diminishing that a bit. I am, however, pointing out that the Bible does not say “Parents, exercise total control over your children, even when they’re adults.” You can honor someone and still disagree with them.
Wow. Before I go on I want you to think about that for a while. Did you look at it again?
He states it is possible to honor an authority and still disagree with them. That is a true statement. It is a very true statement.
In fact, I will go further and state that it is possible to *obey* an authority and still disagree with them. Indeed I have heard it said that one can only obey an authority *if* you disagree with them. The mother who says to the child, “eat your chocolate ice cream” cannot congratulate themselves with the obedience of their child: however quickly and cheerfully they may eat. It is only the mother who says “Eat your Brussels sprouts (or spinach, or the like)” who should feel pleased by obedient eating.
But, somehow, I don’t think that that was Eric’s point. Somehow I think he was trying to say that you could honor an authority and *disobey* them. That is, perhaps, true, at least in one sense. Daniel is, perhaps, an example of that kind of honorable ‘disobedience’.
But Eric quoted two phrases. He quoted both the command to ‘honor’ and the command to ‘obey’. And the law of non-contradiction assures us that it is impossible to both obey and disobey the same person on the same issue at the same time.
Christ said that if we loved Him we were to obey His commands. Christ Himself, vis a vis His Father, stated ‘not my will by thine’.
Perhaps Eric was confused by the example of Daniel. Perhaps when Daniel ‘disobeyed’ Nebuchadnezzar or Darius Eric saw that as encouraging us to be disobedient.
But Daniel wasn’t disobedient. He was faced, as other Godly men have been faced, with two ‘obedient’ choices. He could obey God, or obey a man; his earthly authority. He could obey… or obey.
What was missing entirely from the story of Daniel was any of this own desires. God wanted Daniel to pray to Him,God. Darius wanted Daniel to pray to him,Darius. Perhaps Daniel wanted to go swimming. We’ll never know, because it was never mentioned. What was mentioned was that he… obeyed God.
Each of us has authorities in our life: parents, husbands, employers, the police. Each of us has times when our will does not line up with their will. It is precisely at that moment when we find if we will honor and obey, or dishonor and disobey.
13 comments:
Really liked this post when I stumbled upon it!! I have been debating this exact subject with a group of people. Thanks for sharing!!
Thanks for coming by, and thanks for commenting. Feel free to comment again, even if you disagree!
And feel free to read my books on the subject: http://www.vonsbooks.com/home/theology
Both need reviewers and are available electronically for free to those who wish to review them. Just email me at von@vonsbooks.com
Yes it says to obey your parents. Her post also said you can disagree with your parents and still obey them. then what they are telling you to do must be righteous. What if they are asking you to marry someone you know will be abusive. Parents getting over-involved in their kids relationships is asking disaster. I did not need someone picking my mates for me. The Bible is over 2000 years old. There are differences between morals and customs.
Parts of the Bible are well over 2000 years old, and the Bible was written by an omniscient and omnipotent God, who knows far better than you do what you need or don't need.
And the Scriptural teaching is clear, it is the parents who 'take wives for their sons' and 'give their daughters to husbands'.
Wouldn't you agree that you submit to your parents unless it goes directly against God's word? If your parents were trying to marry you off to an abusive man(i don't know of any sane father who would do so)I would doubt that man is saved. God says not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers(2 Corinthians 6:14). So would you not respectfully, humbly, decline your parents plan to marry this man?
Rachel,
I wouldn't use the II Cor passage for that, better the one in I Cor 7.
But the question arises in Biblical study, when does someone become your husband? My study has shown that it is when your father (that is, of a virgin girl living still under her father's authority) give her in marriage. From that point she has a husband.
So the question comes, if you have a non-Christian husband, should you divorce him? I think I Cor 7 and I Peter 3 answer that in the negative.
See the stories of Esther, Moses, and Joseph for illustrations of this principle.
So...what if the parents picked out a guy for you, an adult woman, that they thought was perfect but for whom you had no feelings? or did not feel was God's choice for you...through much prayer and listening to the Holy Spirit, and yet they told you this was God's choice for you and what they felt was best? should you obey and marry as they wish?...and if so and things went terrible wrong and indeed it was NOT God's best for you, then what?
I totally believe in honoring our parents, which to me means being respectful of their wishes as an adult woman. But I do not put them up on a pedestal, they are sinners as am I and can still make mistakes. As an adult Christian, they are not my final authority, God is. So I will respect and honor them, but God may lead my life in a direction in which they will not entirely approve at sometime or another.
So...what if the parents picked out a guy for you, an adult woman, that they thought was perfect but for whom you had no feelings? or did not feel was God's choice for you...through much prayer and listening to the Holy Spirit, and yet they told you this was God's choice for you and what they felt was best? should you obey and marry as they wish?...and if so and things went terrible wrong and indeed it was NOT God's best for you, then what?
Delighting, your question includes several 'facts not in evidence', such as that your feelings are a good guide to what the Holy Spirit would have you do, or that this person 'was not God's best'.
Obviously everyone can make mistakes, including your parents. However God gives them, in particular your father, the responsibility for picking your husband for you. Once your father has given you to him, he is your husband... and therefore the man to whom you owe the obedience and submission required in Titus 2 and other verses.
Our modern society has somehow elevated the 'adult' man and woman's 'choice' to being the primary issue in a marriage; when in Scripture they are none such.
No, DelightingInHim, you do not have to marry someone just because your parents chose him for you, especially if you've sought the Lord's guidance on it for yourself and thereby know it is not His leading. You have His Spirit in you, sister! He will lead you faithfully! "But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him" (James 1:5). He delights in your own seeking Him and His plan for you, and He will be faithful to give you wisdom & guidance on this issue - and all others! :) If you've prayed about this and you think God is leading you in a different direction than your parents are, trust in the fact that the Holy Spirit lives in you and loves you enough to speak to you directly, and that "We must obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29).
Von, your view of obedience/submission sounds more like slavery.
Truth,
Asking for wisdom for God is indeed what we should do. But you seem to confuse that with a series of feelings.
God is quite clear that we are to obey our parents, and that fathers are to 'take wives for their sons' and 'give their daughters in marriage'. That is what the Scripture clearly teaches.
As for the 'slavery' comment, we are called to be 'slaves' to Christ... and to obey those in authority over us. Our society hates to hear this, but it is what Scripture has said.
Thanks for your reply, von, but if you'll look carefully at my comment, you won't find the word "feelings" anywhere. I did say "think", however, and even "know." But not "feel." I believe a woman can think for herself, and that God can give her wisdom to do so rightly; otherwise God would not have given her a brain.
I believe what the word of God says, but I do not agree with your interpretation and application of it. My father "gave me" to my husband, as it were, but he did not choose my husband for me. Rather, God brought us together apart from our parents. I love and respect my dad here on planet Earth so much, but I know that he doesn't understand my heart or my needs nearly as well as my Father in heaven does. And he knows that, too, which is why he left it up to the Lord to bring my husband and me together.
As to slavery, we are to be slaves of Christ, not of men (or women). "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery" (Galatians 5:1). "You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men" (1 Corinthians 7:23).
Truth,
It is very true that *you* did not use the word 'feelings'... but you need to re-read the post you were responding to. 'Delighting' did, indeed, use the word 'feelings'. This is how she stated she would know the Lord's will... in plain contradiction to what her parents told her.
Scripture, on the other hand, is quite clear, from beginning to end, that children are to obey their parents. It gives many examples of women obeying their parents in marriage: and none at all of their somehow overwhelming their parents choice because of their own 'feelings'.
Indeed there is not a single example anywhere in Scripture of the process you suggest: where the young woman chooses her own husband, or rejects her father's choice.
As to slavery, now that we are agreed we are slaves to Christ, we have but to keep looking and see that he assigns us to subsidiary authorities: elders, masters, parents, husbands. You will recall that in I Peter 3 Peter says that Sarah called her husband 'Lord' (the Greek term here is often used for God) and in Eph 5 women are called to be subject to their husbands 'in every thing'... very similar to what slaves and children are told.
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